steering arms
- Thread starter Mike J
- Start date
I've been meaning to ask the same question. I need an absolute minimum of around 6.25", but the more the better. In my case, the extended length is necessary to get my Rack & Pinion behind the front crossmember, and to allow a 2nd set of attachment holes for steering stabilizers. I'd like around 7", but I'm afraid of reducing my turning radius.
I know Pete & Jakes have at least 2 versions of extended arms, but I've never been able to find any kind of a measurement.
And yes, I know R&P steering is not a good idea, but I have the unit, good advice from a couple folks who have made it work, and a couple ideas of my own. If it does not work, I'll turn it into a DIY version of a Unisteer setup.
I know Pete & Jakes have at least 2 versions of extended arms, but I've never been able to find any kind of a measurement.
And yes, I know R&P steering is not a good idea, but I have the unit, good advice from a couple folks who have made it work, and a couple ideas of my own. If it does not work, I'll turn it into a DIY version of a Unisteer setup.
Hackerbilt
Active Member
The length of your steering arms off the spindle is either very important or ultimately not that important...depending on the style of steering you have.
If you had traditional steering with say a Corvair box on the side to a bolt on arm at the spindle, the two steering arms with the tierod across the car really don't have an effect.
If you have R&P across the front, the length of the two steering arms are very important.
The longer they are, the slower the steering ratio becomes and also you will cut down your available turn radius. Might have to make multiple cuts to turn into a driveway!
If you have cross steer with say a Vega box it gets a bit confusing.
You have something like a R&P setup in that steering arm length will change turn radius and ratio...but you can change the length of the pitman arm a bit to compensate.
Consider the stock Ford spindle arm with two holes for the rod ends on the pass side.
If you use the rearmost hole for the draglink you have one ratio and a certain turn radius.
If you used one of those special tierods with the hole for the draglink to attach to, instead of using that rearmost hole, you effectively shortened the steering arm and will increase steering speed and turn radius!
Also...you might have the steering arms down low on a Gasser, but the actual arm the cross steer draglink attaches to might be mounted independantly up above to keep the draglink parallel to the road surface.
In that case the length of the two steering arms have no real effect and the length of the upper steering arm is the one who's length has to work well with the steering box/pitman arm length.
All that said...you can't have steering arms WAY long as strength will suffer, and you can't have them WAY short as stability will suffer due to increased leverage from the tire.
I'm not an Engineer or anything but I doubt I would want to go more than 2" longer or perhaps 1" shorter. (Assuming it could even be done based on what style steering you have)
I'd be worried about clearance and stability issues and besides...it would just look kinda weird.
If you had traditional steering with say a Corvair box on the side to a bolt on arm at the spindle, the two steering arms with the tierod across the car really don't have an effect.
If you have R&P across the front, the length of the two steering arms are very important.
The longer they are, the slower the steering ratio becomes and also you will cut down your available turn radius. Might have to make multiple cuts to turn into a driveway!
If you have cross steer with say a Vega box it gets a bit confusing.
You have something like a R&P setup in that steering arm length will change turn radius and ratio...but you can change the length of the pitman arm a bit to compensate.
Consider the stock Ford spindle arm with two holes for the rod ends on the pass side.
If you use the rearmost hole for the draglink you have one ratio and a certain turn radius.
If you used one of those special tierods with the hole for the draglink to attach to, instead of using that rearmost hole, you effectively shortened the steering arm and will increase steering speed and turn radius!
Also...you might have the steering arms down low on a Gasser, but the actual arm the cross steer draglink attaches to might be mounted independantly up above to keep the draglink parallel to the road surface.
In that case the length of the two steering arms have no real effect and the length of the upper steering arm is the one who's length has to work well with the steering box/pitman arm length.
All that said...you can't have steering arms WAY long as strength will suffer, and you can't have them WAY short as stability will suffer due to increased leverage from the tire.
I'm not an Engineer or anything but I doubt I would want to go more than 2" longer or perhaps 1" shorter. (Assuming it could even be done based on what style steering you have)
I'd be worried about clearance and stability issues and besides...it would just look kinda weird.
I'm not an Engineer or anything but I, stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.
@Hackerbilt sorry I could not help myself
@Hackerbilt sorry I could not help myself
fluidfloyd
Active Member
There is plenty of information via google search and most of it will over load your thinking at times. Anywhere close to the rear axle center line will work just fine Chances of hitting it on the money are slim. Simple cars sometimes require simple designs. Just something to think about.
Have fun!
George
Have fun!
George
Hackerbilt
Active Member
I'm not an Engineer or anything but I, stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.
@Hackerbilt sorry I could not help myself
Ohhh man...I'm serious when I say I REALLY REALLY needed that laugh!
Thats awesome!!!
Thank you...
Ah, great minds, Zandoz...I've been running my R&P for 20 years and have made all the mistakes and enhancements, so you don't have to. From the kingpin to the R&P rod is 6". And the steering dampers are at 4" on the arms. I got RPM's standard arm, but with no holes so I could make it fit just like I wanted it. Note my R&P is in the front crossmember; if your's will be behind you may need a little more arm (RPM's are real long, I cut off about 3"). The dampers are motorcycle units on eBay: Universal High Quality Adjustable Steering Damper Stabilizer Safety Black. Adjustable and only $50 each. FYI, I have never had front shocks, but am putting some on this winter for smoother highway cruising. I'm using Houdailles. There's a thread on them, and they will be on my project thread soon. Questions, grasshopper?
old round fart
Well-Known Member
Hey PovtinGuy! All the times I looked at your car and slobbered all over it I never noticed your rack was inside the front crossmember. How did you do that? I need pictures! I want to copy that and your cooling system! John
Here's the underside of the crossmember:
I believe that it's a Honda Civic R&P. A rod runs up the inside of the frame rail to a double U-joint at the steering column. You can go here: Sign in - Google Accounts and see a bunch of pics. Lemme know if you want some details.
Your setup has been an inspiration since I first saw pics of it. In the end, our configurations will be pretty different. I'm using a spring over configuration instead of behind. Also, the front crossmember will likely be 4x2 rectangular tube, and the R&P will be mounted behind it, with the bellows and rods going through holes in the frame. I do plan on dual dampers of some type connected to the steering arms, but I'm leaving selecting the specific dampers until it's time to put them onAh, great minds, Zandoz...I've been running my R&P for 20 years and have made all the mistakes and enhancements, so you don't have to. From the kingpin to the R&P rod is 6". And the steering dampers are at 4" on the arms. I got RPM's standard arm, but with no holes so I could make it fit just like I wanted it. Note my R&P is in the front crossmember; if your's will be behind you may need a little more arm (RPM's are real long, I cut off about 3"). The dampers are motorcycle units on eBay: Universal High Quality Adjustable Steering Damper Stabilizer Safety Black. Adjustable and only $50 each. FYI, I have never had front shocks, but am putting some on this winter for smoother highway cruising. I'm using Houdailles. There's a thread on them, and they will be on my project thread soon. Questions, grasshopper?
I'm glad to know that RPM's arms are a possibility, but I'm wondering if they will work to get the ackerman right with my short wheelbase (92" is my target). I'll need arms that will result in a greater angle...I suspect I may have to have them custom built.
I do have a question about the 6" distance between kingpin and the R&P rod/heim. ..but I'm not sure if I'll put this so it makes sense. Is the 6" measurement the angled distance from the center of the king pin to the center of the R&P heim? or is it the right angle distance between the parallel lines through the king pins and through the R&P heims?
Right now, my main need as far as steering goes is to figure out where to position the sleeved holes in the frame for the R&P bellows and tie rods. It's one of those no second chance to get it right things.
I imagine Ron at RPM could make any arm you might dream up. I wouldn't worry about Ackermann. It's just not important. Doesn't affect handling. I ran really bad Ackermann for 20 years and didn't see any tire wear or other effect. Dampers...don't get me started. The only damper marketed for rods is by So-Cal, and it's just a stock Volkswagen unit. I looked at lots of dampers, most of which are big clunkers for off-road vehicles, before I found the motorcycle ones. They look great, come in many colors and have Heims already.
The 6" is from the Heim straight up the arm to a line thru the kingpin. But if you need 7" or 8" you should be good. Again, RPM could make one longer if needed. Looking forward to your build; take pics!
The 6" is from the Heim straight up the arm to a line thru the kingpin. But if you need 7" or 8" you should be good. Again, RPM could make one longer if needed. Looking forward to your build; take pics!
My plan is when it comes to the steering arms...and anything else when feasible...Ron will be my first choice. Right now, in my CAD plan, the heim to kingpin lines dimension is at 7-5/8". I'm hoping that will be OK.
On the ackerman issue, I know many say it's not too critical, but I want to do everything as proper as I am able.
I'll probably end up going with a motorcycle style damper. but I'm on the lookout for other options.
I'm looking forward to this build to...but I'm also procrastinating. My health issues are getting worse almost daily. I had planned on taking pics along the way, but now that won't be an option...I'm shaking too much. But I will try to get wife and/or daughter to take some. Now I just need the nerve to commission having the frame built. I'm stalling mainly because of the health issues, and partially fear of getting shot down again. If I do get shot down again, I'll be out of options for getting the frame done.
The folks I want to approach to do the frame specialize in custom frames, but from what I've seen their work is high end stuff. I don't know if they'll want to bother with my simple frame at a price I can afford. If they do, it will work out nice because they are relatively local, so there would be no shipping costs.
I didn't know of any sponsors doing custom frames.
fletcherson
Well-Known Member
You will likely have to do some trial and error type r&d on the hole placement... What do you mean, no second chances? I have welded many screw ups closed and redone them, lol.... More than I care to admit.
I'm talking about a 3-1/4" sleeved hole...not something I would think would be easy to move say a 1/2". Plus there would be the added expense of having the frame shop make the adjustment.
Basically I just need to figure out how much room I need between the front crossmember and the R&P unit to allow room for bracketry. The unit needs to be almost against the crossmember, but with the un-adjustable feet cast on the pinion housing at about a 35-40° angle to the crossmember.
Since custom steering arms are pretty much a certainty, they'll have to be made to line up with the R&P unit, where ever it lands.
fletcherson
Well-Known Member
If I am I visualizing it correctly, sounds like you just need to figure out where the rack will mount, in regards to the frame to give a location for the center of the tie rods. Then you will have to figure the angle, if any and the travel due to spring deflection and camber. Shouldn't be too bad if you have your rack and frame dimensions. Mark my words, no matter how hard you try and how much you figure, something will bite you and make you say or at least think real bad thoughts! Then get the welder out and erase, try again...lol
Welll, sorta.
The vertical position is a given. The centerline of the R&P and the frame hole will have to be centered on the frame rail. There is no wiggle room for a 3.25" hole in a 4" tall frame rail.
The issue is the horizontal position of the hole. It needs to be as far forward and as close to the crossmember as possible. The farther rearward the greater adverse effect on the turning radius. The problem is that there will have to be R&P mounting bracketry between the crossmember and the R&P...and that bracketry will not be simple.
At this point I've not even come up with bracketry that isn't dangerously close to a product of Mr Rube Goldberg.
fletcherson
Well-Known Member
Not sure what rack you are using, some have bosses cast in, some have bands around them. I have seen them mounted just under the frame, behind the axle, on studs in the frame. There isn't much loss of clearance because they are still above the oil pan, etc... Unless you run into a parking block, or the like. Sometimes I find I have to just get out in the shop and hold the parts where they go and start going through the motions and see what makes sence. Pretty tuff to envision without looking at and touching them for me, but that's how I learned. Good luck!
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